| Message |
: first you say "Although I'm not a subscriber to mag stats" but in the same sentence you say "go look up some old motor trends, and look for yourself". Well, given that I can't prove to you my experiences over a forum, the only mode that is remotely objective was to refer to a magazine. I think you can understand this. If you look at the early 90's numbers, the TTZ always was a wide margin faster than any NSX. Now the 3.2L NSX is a neck to neck competition for a bone stock TT. I could only imagine a Stage II TT kicking an NSX's ass, as long as it is running right (damn it, too many people's Z's don't run right, and then we get into these lame ass arguements b/c they misrepresent!) : I think that Car & Driver is VERY consistent in their testing. I somewhat concur. They have been consistent in spurts. But they have been, only at times more consistant, relative to other mags. I believe Road & Track is the worse. Motor Trend, has its months. : The newer NSXs are as fast if not faster than a C5 Vette. I've yet to see a stock TT Z beat a C5. I won't deny you, but I don't believe it until I see it. I believe a Zanardi edition will run with the C5, but won't eat it, and I’m sure that a normal 3.2L NSX isn't there! But if I am wrong, point me in the direction for correction (LOL, that rhymed!)
You know, I've driven many C5's, and I think the C5 only has more grunt under 30mph (the torque hurts the TTZ). After that surge, I think the cars are the same, and a strong TTZ may have more high, high end. But that’s another discussion :). : You mention the torque of the NSX, but you fail to mention the weight (or lack there of) of it. Ah torque, my favorite physics subject. Oh yeah and the weight issue. Here we go, lets crunch some numbers, shall we? (As any scientist would do) And afterwards, lets discuss some trends and graphs. The early 3.0L NSX's until I think '96, had a maximum power rating of 270hp @ 7100rpm and force rating of 210ft*lbs @ 5300rpm. Now that car weighed in at 3070lbs (This is the only number I could find after searching for the last 30 minutes). Now, lets do some math:
3070/270 = 11.4 lbs/hp
3070/210 = 14.6 lbs per unit of torque (the units are not intuitive here, trust me on this one) Now the TTZ:
We make 300hp at 6400rpm and 283 ft*lbs of torque at 3600rpm. Oh, I like the sound of that. Remember, on avg, our cars weigh ~ 3450lbs. 3450/300 = 11.5 (~ the same, but remember, we have a broader power band, honda is very peaky)
3450/283 = 12.2 lbs per unit torque. Well based on the numbers, the Z wins regardless of its weight, not to mention the way the power is delivered whihc we will discuss later. Now for the newer, 3.2L NSX (97+)
This makes 290hp at 7100rpms and 224ft*lbs of torque at 5300rpms. This car weigh in at ~3100+ lbs (OBD II and additions)
Now for the numbers:
3100/290 = 10.7 (Way to go NSX!)
3100/224 = 13.9 (ouch!, that still has gotta hurt) As you can see from the numbers, the Z has so much more weight adjusted torque to play with. Even the newer NSX is having more than a pound extra per unit of torque to lug around. Sure it has better the hp/lbs margin (-.8), but remember, then with static friction (the friction that has a lot to do with weight) considered negligible due to friction free rotation, only kinetic friction will make the difference, where now we are talking about drag limited speeds. And as far as drag force is concerned, the honduh isn't going to reach those high rpms in 5th or 6th gear, and will be limited. The Z has the edge due to its heavier weight, it has more stability which will make it easier to climb higher triple digit speeds. This is indirectly indicated thru the terminal velocity eqn (Vt) Vt=(2mg/CpA)^1/2 Now your probably wondering, about that weight issue. Let us put that to rest, once and for all, and lets not talk again without thinking about it. If you remember your calculus, when differentiating, what matters is the area under the curve, not a particular point, right (integration dy/dx). The reason I protest many people’s claims for a faster car than a Z, is because it isn’t important what a peaky number is for power, rather the whole damn power band. If the Z gets a jump, it starts quicker and builds to a higher speed with more broad power, even if a car might be marginally faster at a single point. Either way the Z will still win, if it jumps and is really close power wise to its competitor. This is the case here. I have seen the power and force graphs many times for both cars, unfortunately I can’t find the brochures for them anymore. I’m also a little lazy, so I’ll explain and if it really matters to you, you can check it out.
The honda engine is very peaky, and give then less torque and hp, it starts really low and comes into this power range really late in the power band. As for the Z, it starts decently until about 2500rpm, and spikes with the turbos at full boost at 3500rpm. This is very flat power and gains all the way to redline. The Z has more power at its max than the NSX, and continues to have so much more power around that point. The gap is increased in the Z’s favor at the points outside of the max power band, as the Z is broad and the NSX is peaky. What does this really mean. Well, integrating a proper equation for the power or even the torque, the Z has a whole hell of a lot more than the NSX, guaranteeing victory as long as the driver doesn’t screw up. Or simply, you can just find the area under each of the curves and compare them. This is where the Z is quick, relative to others in its class, and this argument holds against the 3000GT VR4, Mazda RX7 (93+), M3 both new(although this is a tight race) and old. The Supra and the C5 are harder competition, and there are different technicalities to be considered for those cars. Well this email is getting long, and I have some stuff to do (like hunt NSXs). So it was fun, and if you have any questions, let me know. I’d like to discuss them. I hope I have convinced you once again how amazing the TTZ is. If not, your loss! No hard feelings! PeaZe,
"hehe, Viper GTS just got passed!" Salah
1993 300ZX Twin Turbo "Happiness is not around the corner, it is the corner!"
|
 |
